Doug,

I've implemented a subclass of DefaultSimilarity (called WESimilarity.java,
copy attached) which defines a new lengthNorm() method more or less as you
suggested.  I then added a line prior to using my IndexWriter:
writer.setSimilarity(new WESimilarity()), and a similar line prior to using
my IndexSeacher: searcher.setSimilarity(new WESimilarity()).

The result:
1) There's no change whatsoever in the computed scores, and
2) The debugging messages never get printed out.

I know the WESimilarity is being used (because if I rename it I get an
exception), but it does not appear that the new lengthNorm() method is being
called.

It's probably some silly goof, but I can't figure out where it is.

If you (or anyone else, of course) have any ideas/suggestions, I'd
appreciate them.

Regards,

Terry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Steichen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
> Doug,
>
> That's excellent.  Just what I've been looking for.  I'll start
> experimenting shortly.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Cutting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
>
>
> > Terry Steichen wrote:
> > > Can you give me an idea of what to replace the lengthNorm() method
with
> to,
> > > for example, remove any special weight given to shorter matching
> documents?
> >
> > The goal of the default implementation is not to give any special weight
> > to shorter documents, but rather to remove the advantage longer
> > documents have.  Longer documents are likely to have more matches simply
> > because they contain more terms.  Also, for the query "foo", a document
> > containing just "foo" is a better match than a longer one containing
> > "foo bar baz", since the match is more exact.
> >
> > However, one problem with this approach can be that very short documents
> > are in fact not very informative.  Thus a bias against very short
> > documents is sometimes useful.
> >
> > > I can certainly go through a bunch of trial-and-error efforts, but it
> would
> > > help if I had some grasp of the logic initially.
> > >
> > > For example, from DefaultSimilarity, here's the lengthNorm() method:
> > >
> > >   public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
> > >     return (float)(1.0 / Math.sqrt(numTerms));
> > >   }
> > >
> > > Should I (for the purpose of eliminating any size bias) override it to
> > > always return a 1?
> >
> > That's something to try, although, as mentioned above, I suspect your
> > top hits will be dominated by long documents.  Try it.  It's really not
> > a difficult experiment!
> >
> > One trick I've used to keep very short documents from dominating
> > results, that, while good matches, are not informative documents, is to
> > override this with something like:
> >
> >     public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
> >       super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
> >     }
> >
> > This way all fields shorter than 100 terms are scored like fields
> > containing 100 terms.  Long documents are still normalized, but search
> > is biased a bit against very short documents.
> >
> > > How would I boost the headline field here? Is that how you are
supposed
> to
> > > use the (presently unused) fieldName parameter?  If that's the case, I
> > > assume I would logically (to do what I'm trying to do) make this
factor
> > > greater than 1 for the 'headline' field, and 1 for all other fields?
> >
> > You could do that here too.  So, for example, you could do something
like:
> >
> >     public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
> >       float n = super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
> >       if (fieldName.equals("headline"))
> >         n *= 4.0f;
> >       return n;
> >     }

Doug,

That's excellent.  Just what I've been looking for.  I'll start
experimenting shortly.

Regards,

Terry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Cutting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
> Terry Steichen wrote:
> > Can you give me an idea of what to replace the lengthNorm() method with
to,
> > for example, remove any special weight given to shorter matching
documents?
>
> The goal of the default implementation is not to give any special weight
> to shorter documents, but rather to remove the advantage longer
> documents have.  Longer documents are likely to have more matches simply
> because they contain more terms.  Also, for the query "foo", a document
> containing just "foo" is a better match than a longer one containing
> "foo bar baz", since the match is more exact.
>
> However, one problem with this approach can be that very short documents
> are in fact not very informative.  Thus a bias against very short
> documents is sometimes useful.
>
> > I can certainly go through a bunch of trial-and-error efforts, but it
would
> > help if I had some grasp of the logic initially.
> >
> > For example, from DefaultSimilarity, here's the lengthNorm() method:
> >
> >   public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
> >     return (float)(1.0 / Math.sqrt(numTerms));
> >   }
> >
> > Should I (for the purpose of eliminating any size bias) override it to
> > always return a 1?
>
> That's something to try, although, as mentioned above, I suspect your
> top hits will be dominated by long documents.  Try it.  It's really not
> a difficult experiment!
>
> One trick I've used to keep very short documents from dominating
> results, that, while good matches, are not informative documents, is to
> override this with something like:
>
>     public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
>       super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
>     }
>
> This way all fields shorter than 100 terms are scored like fields
> containing 100 terms.  Long documents are still normalized, but search
> is biased a bit against very short documents.
>
> > How would I boost the headline field here? Is that how you are supposed
to
> > use the (presently unused) fieldName parameter?  If that's the case, I
> > assume I would logically (to do what I'm trying to do) make this factor
> > greater than 1 for the 'headline' field, and 1 for all other fields?
>
> You could do that here too.  So, for example, you could do something like:
>
>     public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
>       float n = super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
>       if (fieldName.equals("headline"))
>         n *= 4.0f;
>       return n;
>     }
>
> Equivalently, you could create your documents with something like:
>
>    Document d = new Document();
>    Field f = new Field.Text("headline", headline);
>    f.setBoost(4.0f);
>    ...
>
> But headlines tend to be short, and naturally benefit from the default
> lengthNorm implementation.  So what you really might want is something
like:
>
>     public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
>       if (fieldName.equals("headline"))
>         return 4.0f * super.lengthNorm(fieldName, numTerms);
>       else
>         return super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
>     }
>
> This is probably what I'd try first.
>
> Doug
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug,

Can you give me an idea of what to replace the lengthNorm() method with to,
for example, remove any special weight given to shorter matching documents?
I can certainly go through a bunch of trial-and-error efforts, but it would
help if I had some grasp of the logic initially.

For example, from DefaultSimilarity, here's the lengthNorm() method:

  public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
    return (float)(1.0 / Math.sqrt(numTerms));
  }

Should I (for the purpose of eliminating any size bias) override it to
always return a 1?

How would I boost the headline field here? Is that how you are supposed to
use the (presently unused) fieldName parameter?  If that's the case, I
assume I would logically (to do what I'm trying to do) make this factor
greater than 1 for the 'headline' field, and 1 for all other fields?
Regards,

Terry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Cutting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
> Terry Steichen wrote:
> > I read all the relevant references I could find in the Users (not
> > Developers) list, and I still don't exactly know what to do.
> >
> > What I'd like to do is get a relevancy-based order in which (a) longer
> > documents tend to get more weight than shorter ones, (b) a document body
> > with 'X' instances of a query term gets a higher ranking than one with
fewer
> > than 'X' instances. and (c) a term found in the headline (usually in
> > addition to finding the same term in the body) is more highly ranked
than
> > one with the term only in the body.
>
> In the latest sources this can all be done by defining your own
> Similarity implementation.  You can make longer documents score higher
> by overriding the lengthNorm() method.  You can boost headlines there,
> or with Field.setBoost(), or at query time with Query.setBoost().
>
> Doug
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Terry Steichen wrote:
> Can you give me an idea of what to replace the lengthNorm() method with to,
> for example, remove any special weight given to shorter matching documents?

The goal of the default implementation is not to give any special weight
to shorter documents, but rather to remove the advantage longer
documents have.  Longer documents are likely to have more matches simply
because they contain more terms.  Also, for the query "foo", a document
containing just "foo" is a better match than a longer one containing
"foo bar baz", since the match is more exact.

However, one problem with this approach can be that very short documents
are in fact not very informative.  Thus a bias against very short
documents is sometimes useful.

> I can certainly go through a bunch of trial-and-error efforts, but it would
> help if I had some grasp of the logic initially.
>
> For example, from DefaultSimilarity, here's the lengthNorm() method:
>
>   public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
>     return (float)(1.0 / Math.sqrt(numTerms));
>   }
>
> Should I (for the purpose of eliminating any size bias) override it to
> always return a 1?

That's something to try, although, as mentioned above, I suspect your
top hits will be dominated by long documents.  Try it.  It's really not
a difficult experiment!

One trick I've used to keep very short documents from dominating
results, that, while good matches, are not informative documents, is to
override this with something like:

    public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
      super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
    }

This way all fields shorter than 100 terms are scored like fields
containing 100 terms.  Long documents are still normalized, but search
is biased a bit against very short documents.

> How would I boost the headline field here? Is that how you are supposed to
> use the (presently unused) fieldName parameter?  If that's the case, I
> assume I would logically (to do what I'm trying to do) make this factor
> greater than 1 for the 'headline' field, and 1 for all other fields?

You could do that here too.  So, for example, you could do something like:

    public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
      float n = super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
      if (fieldName.equals("headline"))
        n *= 4.0f;
      return n;
    }

Equivalently, you could create your documents with something like:

   Document d = new Document();
   Field f = new Field.Text("headline", headline);
   f.setBoost(4.0f);
   ...

But headlines tend to be short, and naturally benefit from the default
lengthNorm implementation.  So what you really might want is something like:

    public float lengthNorm(String fieldName, int numTerms) {
      if (fieldName.equals("headline"))
        return 4.0f * super.lengthNorm(fieldName, numTerms);
      else
        return super.lengthNorm(fieldName, Math.max(numTerms, 100));
    }

This is probably what I'd try first.

Doug
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I admit to a bit of frustration.

With the past several messages, I simply asked (or, more accurately, tried
to ask) how to alter the way that Lucene ranks relevancy, and I asked
whether the selective boost mechanism might do the trick.  I admitted that I
don't know (nor care to know) the theory behind how relevancy is computed.

So far I've been told to review the archives (which I've done), and then
this (which I don't understand - see my embedded [==>]comments below).

What's next? Seems that I'm getting a message: "Figure it out on your own,
you dummy." Maybe I've gotten on the wrong list by mistake?

Terry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Galambos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
> 1) Lucene uses the Vector model, if you want to use different model

==>I have no idea of what that means, nor what the alternative to the
"Vector model" might be.

>you must understand what you are doing

==>which I don't, as I've already stated several times.

>and you must change similarity calculations.

==>which means what? Is that part of Lucene?

>AFAIK you would set the normalization factor to a constant value (1.0 or
so).

==>Does this mean not to use boost?

> 2) you are trying to search for DATA, not INFORMATION. It is a big
> difference. For your task, you could rather use simpler engine that is
> based on RDBMS and B+.

==>I didn't know I was excluding one for the other.  Do I interpret all this
to mean Lucene can't be adjusted to do what I was asking?  That it's too
complicated?

--

> What's next? Seems that I'm getting a message: "Figure it out on your own,
> you dummy."

And from your letter I understood that you want someone to do your
homework (for nothing). :) Right?

One would say: ask not what others can do for you, ask what you can do for
them.

> >you must understand what you are doing
>
> ==>which I don't, as I've already stated several times.

It is hard for me to tell anything. AFAIK (friendly speaking) Lucene does
not offer click-click interface...

> >and you must change similarity calculations.
>
> ==>which means what? Is that part of Lucene?

Doug told it few days ago, I hope it is still in Similarity.java file.

> >AFAIK you would set the normalization factor to a constant value (1.0 or
> so).
>
> ==>Does this mean not to use boost?

I am not God. The final decision is yours.

> ==>I didn't know I was excluding one for the other.  Do I interpret all this
> to mean Lucene can't be adjusted to do what I was asking?  That it's too
> complicated?

It means, Lucene offers much more than you want => you can use a simpler
package that can be configured faster. I.e. UdmSearch uses a simple SQL
query...

-g-

--

I read all the relevant references I could find in the Users (not
Developers) list, and I still don't exactly know what to do.

Let me explain a bit more.  The documents I index are all news stories.  The
typical document body ranges in size from 200 to 2000 words.  The document
is structured into a couple of dozen indexed fields, but nearly all
searching is done in two: the headline and the body.

What I'd like to do is get a relevancy-based order in which (a) longer
documents tend to get more weight than shorter ones, (b) a document body
with 'X' instances of a query term gets a higher ranking than one with fewer
than 'X' instances. and (c) a term found in the headline (usually in
addition to finding the same term in the body) is more highly ranked than
one with the term only in the body.

But that's not what happens with the default scoring, and I'd like to change
that.

I'm guessing, but maybe if I check the document length at indexing time and
boost longer documents, that will help.  Maybe I could also (at index time)
give an extra boost to the headline field.  Would that be the most I could
do without changing the Lucene core source?

Regards,

Terry

PS: I'm also wondering if the fact that I have so many other fields, this
may affect the ranking in a way that diminishes the relevance of the
headline and/or body fields?

PSS: I'd just like to clarify another point.  Much of the background
information on the scoring algorithms is beyond me and I have no interest
whatsoever in pushing the boundaries of this part of the technology.  All I
want to do is use it so it comes out in a way that seems reasonable (without
having to become an expert in the complex theory behind this).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Otis Gospodnetic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lucene Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Computing Relevancy Differently
> Check the lucene-user archives, search for subject "custom scoring api
> questions"
> I think that may give you the answer....
>
> Otis
>
>
> --- Terry Steichen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > How would one go about altering the formula for relevancy?  (That is,
> > which modules and which code?)  I'm certain that the current
> > algorithm is well founded in logic and probably works well in many
> > environments.
> >
> > However, I find that, as I index news stories, the current algorithm
> > frequently doesn't produce meaningful rankings.  In previous
> > discussions in this list about relevancy, the algorithm seemed to be
> > very complex, possibly too complex for my poor brain to fully grasp.
> > But I'd like to try some other options and see if they result in
> > rankings more in line with what my average viewer would expect.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
--

Terry Steichen wrote:
> I read all the relevant references I could find in the Users (not
> Developers) list, and I still don't exactly know what to do.
>
> What I'd like to do is get a relevancy-based order in which (a) longer
> documents tend to get more weight than shorter ones, (b) a document body
> with 'X' instances of a query term gets a higher ranking than one with fewer
> than 'X' instances. and (c) a term found in the headline (usually in
> addition to finding the same term in the body) is more highly ranked than
> one with the term only in the body.

In the latest sources this can all be done by defining your own
Similarity implementation.  You can make longer documents score higher
by overriding the lengthNorm() method.  You can boost headlines there,
or with Field.setBoost(), or at query time with Query.setBoost().

Doug
---------------------------------------------------------------------

> What I'd like to do is get a relevancy-based order in which (a) longer
> documents tend to get more weight than shorter ones, (b) a document body
> with 'X' instances of a query term gets a higher ranking than one with fewer
> than 'X' instances. and (c) a term found in the headline (usually in
> addition to finding the same term in the body) is more highly ranked than
> one with the term only in the body.
>
> But that's not what happens with the default scoring, and I'd like to change
> that.

I am not Lucene developer, but:

1) Lucene uses the Vector model, if you want to use different model you
must understand what you are doing and you must change similarity
calculations. AFAIK you would set the normalization factor to a constant
value (1.0 or so).

2) you are trying to search for DATA, not INFORMATION. It is a big
difference. For your task, you could rather use simpler engine that is
based on RDBMS and B+.

-g-
--

How would one go about altering the formula for relevancy?  (That is, which modules and which code?)  I'm certain that the current algorithm is well founded in logic and probably works well in many environments.  

However, I find that, as I index news stories, the current algorithm frequently doesn't produce meaningful rankings.  In previous discussions in this list about relevancy, the algorithm seemed to be very complex, possibly too complex for my poor brain to fully grasp.  But I'd like to try some other options and see if they result in rankings more in line with what my average viewer would expect.

Regards,

Terry

Check the lucene-user archives, search for subject "custom scoring api
questions"
I think that may give you the answer....

Otis
--- Terry Steichen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How would one go about altering the formula for relevancy?  (That is,
> which modules and which code?)  I'm certain that the current
> algorithm is well founded in logic and probably works well in many
> environments.  
>
> However, I find that, as I index news stories, the current algorithm
> frequently doesn't produce meaningful rankings.  In previous
> discussions in this list about relevancy, the algorithm seemed to be
> very complex, possibly too complex for my poor brain to fully grasp.
> But I'd like to try some other options and see if they result in
> rankings more in line with what my average viewer would expect.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
>
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